Curse

Skye Marin · Apr 18, 2010, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catchphrase

Arcane Zeal
5 15
Skill. For 3...10 seconds, your enchantments deal 15%...40% more damage and recharge 33% faster if removed prematurely.

This isn't possible on a technical level. If you use an enchantment, it starts to recharge right away. No effect already exists to speed up the recharge of skills already recharging (excluding instant recharge, which doesn't count). Adding this effect would cause strain on development resources.

Either the -33% needs to be in effect when the enchant is cast, or the enchant recharges instantly if it is removed prematurely.

Silvance · Apr 18, 2010, 03:10 PM // 15:10

I only pve, so all of these ideas apply to pve only.

As has been said, AoHM needs to be tied to mysticism in some way. Maybe something like 5 seconds +1 second per 2 ranks mysticism, and reducing its recharge time to 15 seconds. Also remove your attacks doing holy damage.

Changes to mysticism: Whenever an enchantment ends on you, you gain 1 energy per 2 ranks in mysticism and all adjacent foes take 2 holy damage per rank in mysticism.

I've always viewed the Dervish as a frontline pbaoe attacker, mixing powerful scythe attacks with holy magic of the gods. The problem, casting enchants means you're not attacking. Attacking means you're not casting enchants. I'm not suggesting that the dervish do both at the same time per say, but doing one should not exclude or impede doing the other.

All pbaoe enchants should have their damage changed to holy or armor ignoring damage, their recharge times reduced by 5 to 10 seconds depending on their duration, and they shouldn't interrupt normal attacks. They can have an aftercast delay where an attack skill or another enchant can't be used for .75 seconds or whatever, but it's a decent sized hit to dps when you have to restart the scythe's long attack interval after the casting animation is over.

Everyone seems to like the original version of Pious assault, and I wasn't around to use it, but just reading its description it didn't seem that powerful, except that it had pretty high damage compared to most scythe attacks. What if it was changed to something like this: 5e 6 or 8sec recharge Functionality: You lose one (dervish) enchantment. This attack strikes for +10-+20 damage. If an enchantment was removed in this way, you strike for an additional +10-+25 damage. The amount of damage may need to be tweaked so that it's not overpowered.

As has been talked about already, if removing enchantments in this way is restricted to dervish enchants only, it does take away an element of risk since you're not removing your monk's prots. I'm kind of on the fence about that one myself. Now, to make enchantment juggling a bit easier, having Pious Assault and other scythe attacks that remove enchants reduce enchantment recharge by 20-33% would be a good idea, too. That might be a bit overpowered, though, and you could just use eternal aura to get a similar effect.

Having a maintainable ias is a big part of the meta, but considering that some dervish ias skills are enchants, I don't think that should be the case to get the most out of mysticism. At least where Heart of Fury is concerned. Reducing its duration and recharge to 10 and 15 (or 8 and 12) seconds respectively, and changing its ending effect to something other than burning would go a long way toward making it a better skill. Although I can't think of anything to replace the burning, as all other conditions are already represented well by other dervish enchants. Onslaught might benefit from similar treatment.

I've been trying out zealous renewal recently, and I'm not sure if I'm getting much out of it. By the time the 20 seconds are up, the battle is over or almost over, and more than once I've recast the enchantment before the 20 seconds and didn't get the energy gain. I think it should be changed to something like this. 10e 20 sec recharge. All adjacent foes take 15-50 holy damage. For 15 seconds, every time you successfully hit with an attack, you gain 1 energy for each enchantment on you (max 3e or 5e).

Avatar of Grenth needs to not do cold damage. Actually, I think the enchants that change your attacks to elemental should not, but that's just me.

One thing that I think is sort of missing from the dervish's attack skills is something that ends stances. I currently use wild blow, which works pretty well, but I think stance removal could be added to Irresistible sweep without making it overpowered.

Burst Cancel · Apr 18, 2010, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The modern high DPS scythe builds for both the warrior and the dervish require a crapload of energy in order to spam scythe attacks. Dervishes simply cannot afford this without zealous vow (which is also an elite skill, denying them any hope of having an advantage). Of course, to be fair, I should have mentioned (slipped my mind at the time) that even if WE were nerfed, warriors would simply take zealous vow as well, since it's in wind prayers (why I don't know; it clearly belongs in mysticism, since that's meant to be the energy attribute and every other skill with "zeal" in the name is there save for zealous sweep).

Even your potential super WS's usefulness seems dubious to me, simply because sacrificing zealous vow means losing a ton of dps. As it stands, the deep wound of WS and RS is meaningless. The difference is that great.

I think you are greatly overstating the case. In the first place, the energy situation for D/W and W/D is substantially different due to Power Attack, which greatly increases DPS and adds significant energy expenditure; Dervishes don't have a comparable tool in either sense. Furthermore, D/W builds have been spamming Eremite's and Mystic from the beginning, and I can't remember ever taking active emgt on any of those builds; a zealous weapon + monk or necro enchantments has always been enough. Zealous Vow allows you to use different weapon mods, and maintain skill spam against the last one or two enemies in a group, but I don't see that as being worth your elite slot.

Until you can match the DPS of builds like MSDB though, I don't see how any of this is really relevant.

Barrage · Apr 18, 2010, 04:09 PM // 16:09

I don't understand what's wrong with other classes using a scythe effectively, this game was basically designed to allow people to come up with effective builds by mixing and matching classes.

Gill Halendt · Apr 18, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

I don't understand what's wrong with other classes using a scythe effectively, this game was basically designed to allow people to come up with effective builds by mixing and matching classes.

This.

AoHM is fine as it is IMO. I'd love some decent e-management and a viable IAS for primary Dervishes to match A/Ds and W/Ds somehow more than yet another "nerf" to creative yet hardly game-breaking solutions.

Also forcing Dervishes to spec into Mysticism to have their allegiance skill working effectively isn't necessarily a good thing, expecially since most of the defensive skills are under Earth Prayers. You either loose something out of the skill or trade survivability for more DPS, while A/Ds and W/Ds will still work fine.

shoyon456 · Apr 18, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

I don't understand what's wrong with other classes using a scythe effectively, this game was basically designed to allow people to come up with effective builds by mixing and matching classes.

The problem isnt that other classes use a scythe effectively, its that other classes use a scythe more effectively than a Derv can when its supposed to be their native weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvance

Changes to mysticism: Whenever an enchantment ends on you, you gain 1 energy per 2 ranks in mysticism and all adjacent foes take 2 holy damage per rank in mysticism.

I already suggested this on the previous page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

2(a).AoHM is tied to Mysticism.
(b).I think that the healing gain from Mysticism should be dropped and replaced by an additional 1 holy damage per rank in Mysticism on all melee attacks. This would not make attacks deal holy damage, only the extra damage from Mysticism will be.
(c).Alternatively (either this or b.) drop the health gain and add 2 holy damage per rank in Mysticism to all adjacent enemies when an enchantment on you ends.

I'm sure it was unintentional, quote/reference people when you do that...

Desert Rose · Apr 18, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

The problem isnt that other classes use a scythe effectively, its that other classes use a scythe more effectively than a Derv can when its supposed to be their native weapon.

No, that isn't the problem; the problem is that dervishes have no ohter abilites or strenghts that can compensate that other professions can use scythes better.

NerfHerder · Apr 18, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

AoHM is fine as it is IMO. I'd love some decent e-management and a viable IAS for primary Dervishes to match A/Ds and W/Ds somehow more than yet another "nerf" to creative yet hardly game-breaking solutions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

The problem isnt that other classes use a scythe effectively, its that other classes use a scythe more effectively than a Derv can when its supposed to be their native weapon.

What Shoyon said.

I dont want skills nerfed unless its absolutely necessary. Only problem with not changing AoHM is that in order to make the Dervish the most effective with a scythe is to nerf several skills from the Assassin and Warrior, which alot of people including myself would hate to see happen. Or buff the Dervish to be better. I feel as it stands, Dervishes already do plenty of damage. To me buffing the Dervish with a scythe so it could out do DPS done by Warriors and Assassins(in its current state), would just make it overpowered and we are back where we started. I think just giving the Dervish slightly better energy management and improved IAS might level the playing field, but I dont know if it would make it the clear master of the scythe, like it was meant to be.

IMO, its Anet's goal to make classes most efficient with "native" weapons. Why else would they change hammer and dagger skills that become exploited by other classes. Not to mention it just makes sense.

shadows of hob · Apr 18, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Buffing Dervish in PvE? They already have some insane builds that deal crazy aoe damage, hitting constantly with 200+ in any HM area is normal.

I do agree however that the wind and earth spells do need some buffs.

Gondrakif · Apr 18, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadows of hob

Buffing Dervish in PvE? They already have some insane builds that deal crazy aoe damage, hitting constantly with 200+ in any HM area is normal.

Could you post such a build please?

+1 to tying AoHM to mysticism and giving dervishes a better ias, maybe a mysticism rework too...

reaper with no name · Apr 19, 2010, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I think you are greatly overstating the case. In the first place, the energy situation for D/W and W/D is substantially different due to Power Attack, which greatly increases DPS and adds significant energy expenditure; Dervishes don't have a comparable tool in either sense. Furthermore, D/W builds have been spamming Eremite's and Mystic from the beginning, and I can't remember ever taking active emgt on any of those builds; a zealous weapon + monk or necro enchantments has always been enough. Zealous Vow allows you to use different weapon mods, and maintain skill spam against the last one or two enemies in a group, but I don't see that as being worth your elite slot.

Until you can match the DPS of builds like MSDB though, I don't see how any of this is really relevant.

It takes 25 energy just to get AoHM, HoF, and AS up. Then, after that, you're spamming MS, EA, and PS (Power Attack is not so good for these types of builds because it does not activate quickly enough, and the whole point is more attacks in less time) on recharge. These all have 3-4 sec recharges, so that's about 15 energy every 5 seconds. Where on earth is a dervish going to get that kind of energy except by taking zealous vow? A zealous scythe and enchantments from the party sure won't do it, that's for sure.

You don't need to match the primary target DPS of MSDB to be potentially "useful", so long as you can beat it's secondary target DPS (which scythes can). Otherwise, yeah, there's no point in using a scythe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadows of hob

Buffing Dervish in PvE? They already have some insane builds that deal crazy aoe damage, hitting constantly with 200+ in any HM area is normal.

I do agree however that the wind and earth spells do need some buffs.

That's not true. A dervish with full ranks in relevant titles using the best builds currently available can expect a little less than 100 dps on a lvl 30 enemy (less against adjacent targets). That's still a lot, but the problem is that warriors and assassins with similar builds can do even more damage with no downsides, leaving there no reason to actually use the dervish.

Lopezus · Apr 19, 2010, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

leaving there no reason to actually use the dervish.

I can accept that W/D or A/D dish out more damge then D/ but in return dervishes should be able to have soem other advantages. That leaves us with mysticism both effects and skill like which is pretty weak. Avatars definietly needs some serius love, removing EA as necessity to use them is a must : AoM+EA = 35 energy to use, boo hoo what a crapy combination to use not so powerful elite.

agrios · Apr 19, 2010, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I also like the idea of Avatars dishing out diferent damage types.

For an example, Lyssa, should do chaos damage and Grenth,should do dark or have a bonus of life-stealing each swing. I like the life-stealing idea better. It suits better to the idea of god associated to death.

Also, since the concept of the Dervish is of a holy warrior, wich powers are fueled by faith, most of his PBAoE spells should do Holy Damage. And as said before the cast and after cast times should be reduced to keep the flow of the beating, since they're in the frontlines, and often surrounded by foes. He could also have a permanent "aura" damaging targets in melee range when enchanted, to say, 1 holy dps at each 2 or 3 points in mysticism. The Paladin in Diablo2 had something like that didnt he?

The problem with all this is...if it leads to a new flavor, it gets the nerfbat.

Theres a lot of potencial in Dervishes...I believe the number of different ideas in this thread just prove they need some tweaking.

Neo Atomisk · Apr 19, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dace Hunters

It's been suggested before, but linking AoHM to Mysticism could balance it out a little. Something like "Lasts for 5 seconds and 2 more seconds for every rank of Mysticism". A bet a dervish with AoHM will do a lot more damage than a critscythe without AoHM.

I completely agree with that. crit agility, seed of life and There's nothing to fear (off the top of my head) are the same way. It'd be a great nerf to secondary scythe users and I guess with extensive mysticism it could make it maintainable.

But also, I don't think dervishes need to be super buffed, everything else needs to be toned down a little... power creep...

reaper with no name · Apr 19, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

I can accept that W/D or A/D dish out more damge then D/ but in return dervishes should be able to have soem other advantages. That leaves us with mysticism both effects and skill like which is pretty weak. Avatars definietly needs some serius love, removing EA as necessity to use them is a must : AoM+EA = 35 energy to use, boo hoo what a crapy combination to use not so powerful elite.

Exactly. Balance means everyone gets something they can brag about to the other classes.

I've been doing a little math, and it seems that during a 7 second interval (which is right when the scythe attacks recharge, so anything after will just be a repeat of the last "combo"), a scythe sin can pull off around 130 dps (150 if you count the DW) against a primary target and about 90 dps against adjacent targets (100 if you count the DW) if you assume they are lvl 30 enemies. In other words, if we want the dervish to be able to deal more damage with the scythe than assassins without nerfing them, this is what they'll have to beat.

Also, unless enchantment juggling offers something scythe sins can't, this is also the number that dervishes will have to reach if they're buffed via enchantment juggling in order for that method of combat to be "useful" (otherwise, the dervish will be just as redundant as it is right now).

Voodoo Rage · Apr 19, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Even my lowly paragon seems to be a more effective scythe wielder than my dervish, spamming attacks freely powered by adrenal based shouts (that also benefit the team too).

I would throw out that ultimately we want our dervishes to be the BEST profession for scythe damage. I would treat mysticism similar to strength on a warrior; higher attributes make your SCYTHE more deadly (IAS, armor penetration, damage, whatever...).

Cuilan · Apr 19, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Even my lowly paragon seems to be a more effective scythe wielder than my dervish, spamming attacks freely powered by adrenal based shouts (that also benefit the team too).

What is your paragon and dervish builds? Your post sounds like an exaggeration.

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 19, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Do you deny that Flail is overpowered in PvE? You say it should be untouchable, but not SY? The same argument applies to both. Mess with SY, and you mess with both paragons and dervishes. You'd also mess with a couple of good builds for warriors, assassins, and rangers.

No, Flail is not overpowered, or at least it is nowhere near the top of the list in terms of importance, and especially not so considering a skill like SY! which is absolutely ridiculous any way you swing things. And I am aware, and show a lack of care, that messing with SY messes with everyone else because that is the point. I'm not saying 'smiter's boon' the thing, but it needs toned down a LOT.

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If we ignore SY, then the problem of balancing the dervish scythe-wise becomes even more difficult, because now they have to not only out-scythe the warrior, but also the scythe sin. I don't think that could possibly be attained without nerfing the scythe sin to hell and back. If you want to do that, it's fine by me, but for the record, I prefer not to nerf people unnecessarily.

Again, you are assuming that the balance of dervishes soully depend on SY!, which is not true.

Balancing dervishes boils down to a few ways to do things, in order to make them the 'best' scythe weilder, compared to all other classes. You can either nerf the classes who do it better, buff the dervish itself, or a bit of both to find some sort of middle ground. The one way I do not agree with is -just- buffing the dervish. Things to not need to become more powerful in order for the class to become viable.

On a basic level, Assassins are/were designed to be somewhat squishier, but more powerful as a result, therefor I think the problem is not that Assassins wield the scythe better then the dervish, so much as they do so without any downside. In fact, they have MORE armor then a dervish, and permanent IAS with ONE SKILL. In fact, looking at plain dagger wielders, I think Critical Agility could use a little nerf. Getting rid of the armor bonus is a definite way to knock them back a peg without ruining them outright. So, in short, yes, I do think nerfing assassins is necessary, and if not necessary, a very good course of action.

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As for your suggestions for enchantment juggling. Most of them are obvious ones. However, reverting Pious Assault alone would not be enough. It would also need a shorter activation time than it did back then. Making the damage of PBAoEs armor-ignoring would also not be enough. Remember, at the very least this method of combat would have to beat the AoE capabilities of a scythe. So we're talking something like 80 or more AoE dps just to have a prayer of being worthwhile (remember, scythes do more primary target damage than adjacent target damage, so only doing slightly more than their adjacent target damage isn't enough; have to beat it by a lot). And dps is not the same as damage on hit thanks to cast times and aftercast delays (unless you're going to have all PBAoEs cast in 1/4 sec).

For one, why would PA need a shorter activation, when it already has +damage that rivals all other scythe attacks, AND instant recharge? You can't have your cake AND eat it too...

The point of either making the PBAoE damage armor ignoring, or at least higher in general, is so that the damage of it AFTER taking into account cast time, and aftercast, is viable enough to compensate for the dervish not being able to attack during that time. Casting time and after cast ONLY cuts into DPS if the damage being done by the spell is undesirable compared to the damage you would do simply be continuing attacking, which a few exceptions of course (weapon effects like mods, for example), hence why I also suggested lowering the cast time of the PBAoE enchantments to 1/2 (1.25 with aftercast) or 1/4 (1s with aftercast) to better mesh with the attack speed of scythes (and in fact quicker)

And it wouldn't necessarily have to beat out the AoE damage of the scythe, because:
1) you're not casting ALL the time.
2) You are using the enchantments to fuel PA.
3) AoE of enchantments have no limits, whereas the AoE of scythe DOES, and is in fact less than adjacent.

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But yes, the removing only dervish enchantments part is important. It's something I've considered. However, there's also an alternative idea that I've thought of. What if, instead of making enchantment juggling as good as other form of melee with no risk of removing important enchantments, you make it better but leave in the risk? You run the risk of RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing yourself over, but you also deal more damage than anyone else in the party. Just throwing that idea out there. Either way works, really.

I like it, however it's not something Anet seems to take into consideration with dervishes. Maybe they assume that Dervishes are so good at protecting themselves with Earth prayers, that the fact that they can remove monk enchantments isn't a risk?

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Being forced to use a snare just to be effective? Yeah, that's gonna make the dervish wanted. Besides, unless the recharge times on your enchantments are so short you only need one or two, you're not gonna have much space on your bar, which will limit your options.

AoE damage that causes scatter runs the risk of scatter, and if you don't snare you're making the entire build less effective. Same with Elementalists. It's generally stupid to slap some skills like Firestorm on without a snare in late game/HM and expect to do good damage, so you either snare, or don't use them.

The problem of scatter generally doesn't exist with PBAoE enchantments because they don't do enough ticks of damage in a short enough period of time to cause scatter, and with an enchantment juggling build, Pious Assault is usually your only, or one of your only attack skills, filling the rest of the slots with PBAoE enchants and protection.

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You're also ignoring the fundamental point I was trying to make. Are these changes possible? Quite possibly. But how many skills are you going to have to change to do it? Is Anet willing to put forth that much effort (and take that much risk with so many skill changes at once) and split that many skills just to fix the dervish, when most dervish players don't even realize their class sucks to begin with (and the class could be made "useful" with the scythe with comparatively few changes)? Honestly, I don't think they are. I'd love to be wrong on this, though, and I'd certainly support any suggestions that can make the dervish useful in the way it was meant to be, but I'm not holding out much hope in it actually happening.

Well, All those changes are Ideal. the bringing back of Enchantment Juggling, and change to AoHM and perhaps a better IAS alone would certainly do wonders, while only changing and handful of skills. If decided to nerf WE and Critical Agility (or something of the nature), it would be even more useful. Changes to Mysticism, though it would be awesome, probably require too much work and thought.

But on the note, I don't expect Anet to do anything anymore, I just suggest and hope for the best lol

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The modern high DPS scythe builds for both the warrior and the dervish require a crapload of energy in order to spam scythe attacks. Dervishes simply cannot afford this without zealous vow (which is also an elite skill, denying them any hope of having an advantage). Of course, to be fair, I should have mentioned (slipped my mind at the time) that even if WE were nerfed, warriors would simply take zealous vow as well, since it's in wind prayers (why I don't know; it clearly belongs in mysticism, since that's meant to be the energy attribute and every other skill with "zeal" in the name is there save for zealous sweep).

Even your potential super WS's usefulness seems dubious to me, simply because sacrificing zealous vow means losing a ton of dps. As it stands, the deep wound of WS and RS is meaningless. The difference is that great.

Attacker's Insight. Zealous Vow just promotes haphazard spamming. Attacker's Insight is, realistically, 2 free attack skills and a trigger of mysticism (and energy regen during that time), which is enough to keep dervishes going alongside of your occasional monk enchant/orders flying around. I ran into absolutely no problem running Attackers insight in a spamming build with WS and some other skills.

Also, "losing dps" and "WS" in the same sentence is foreign to me. WS is an on demand, slightly AoE Deep Wound. Deep Wound of course, ideally doing a slightly artificial 100 damage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

What is your paragon and dervish builds? Your post sounds like an exaggeration.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:P/D_Scythe_Spammer

Voodoo Rage · Apr 19, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

What is your paragon and dervish builds? Your post sounds like an exaggeration.

More or less what's on PVXwiki:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:P/D_Scythe_Spammer

Personally, I use Drunken Master for some IAS and I like Blazing Finale on the bar too if I can. Bottom line, I can spam skills endlessly with energy always flowing due to the shouts.

reaper with no name · Apr 20, 2010, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

No, Flail is not overpowered, or at least it is nowhere near the top of the list in terms of importance, and especially not so considering a skill like SY! which is absolutely ridiculous any way you swing things. And I am aware, and show a lack of care, that messing with SY messes with everyone else because that is the point. I'm not saying 'smiter's boon' the thing, but it needs toned down a LOT.

Clearly, our priorities on this issue are different, so we'll just have to disagree on it and move on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Again, you are assuming that the balance of dervishes soully depend on SY!, which is not true.

No, that's not what I was saying. This is what I was trying to get across:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

On a basic level, Assassins are/were designed to be somewhat squishier, but more powerful as a result, therefor I think the problem is not that Assassins wield the scythe better then the dervish, so much as they do so without any downside. In fact, they have MORE armor then a dervish, and permanent IAS with ONE SKILL. In fact, looking at plain dagger wielders, I think Critical Agility could use a little nerf. Getting rid of the armor bonus is a definite way to knock them back a peg without ruining them outright. So, in short, yes, I do think nerfing assassins is necessary, and if not necessary, a very good course of action.

But you already understand that, so, no repetition needed.

I was speaking from the hypothetical standpoint of what it would take if the assassin were not nerfed. If we assume the opposite, the whole ballgame changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Balancing dervishes boils down to a few ways to do things, in order to make them the 'best' scythe weilder, compared to all other classes. You can either nerf the classes who do it better, buff the dervish itself, or a bit of both to find some sort of middle ground. The one way I do not agree with is -just- buffing the dervish. Things to not need to become more powerful in order for the class to become viable.

I agree. However, in the absence of other factors (such as "buffing A without nerfing B would make A overpowered!"), I prefer not to nerf unnecessarily. However, one can make the argument that my example just now is exactly the current situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

For one, why would PA need a shorter activation, when it already has +damage that rivals all other scythe attacks, AND instant recharge? You can't have your cake AND eat it too...

The point of either making the PBAoE damage armor ignoring, or at least higher in general, is so that the damage of it AFTER taking into account cast time, and aftercast, is viable enough to compensate for the dervish not being able to attack during that time. Casting time and after cast ONLY cuts into DPS if the damage being done by the spell is undesirable compared to the damage you would do simply be continuing attacking, which a few exceptions of course (weapon effects like mods, for example), hence why I also suggested lowering the cast time of the PBAoE enchantments to 1/2 (1.25 with aftercast) or 1/4 (1s with aftercast) to better mesh with the attack speed of scythes (and in fact quicker)

And it wouldn't necessarily have to beat out the AoE damage of the scythe, because:
1) you're not casting ALL the time.
2) You are using the enchantments to fuel PA.
3) AoE of enchantments have no limits, whereas the AoE of scythe DOES, and is in fact less than adjacent.

In order to allow enchantment juggling to compete. I'm taking into account the fact that you aren't always casting.

Let me give you an idea of what's been going on in my head. Now, I mentioned above that a scythe sin can expect 130 primary target dps and 90 AoE dps, and unless the dervish can either exceed one or both of these numbers or offer something that the scythe sin cannot (this is why I brought up SY back then; it's an example of something useful a scythe sin cannot do that a primary dervish can), then it will not be useful.

Now, assuming no nerfs to the assassin, let's take a look at some back of the envelope ideas for buffs I had (not that I would seriously suggest them, mind you; it's just to get a feel for the numbers in this little thought experiment):

Mysticism
Whenever a dervish enchantment ends on you, gain 1 energy per 2 ranks

Dust Cloak (PvE)
5 en, 1/4 act, 10 rchg, AoE deals 30-80 damage, damage ignores armor

Staggering Force (PvE)
5 en, 1/4 act, 5 rchg, AoE deals 30-80 damage, damage ignores armor

Mirage Cloak (PvE)
10 en, 1/4 act, AoE deals 30-80 damage, damage ignores armor

Grenth's Fingers (PvE)
5 en, 1/4 act, 5 rchg, AoE deals 30-80 damage, damage ignores armor

Grenth's Aura (PvE)
10 en, 1/4 act, 5 rchg, AoE deals 30-80 damage, damage ignores armor

Heart of Holy Flame (PvE)
5 en, 1/4 act, 5 rchg, AoE deals 30-80 damage

Pious Assault (PvE)
5 en, 1 act, 12 rchg, Lose 1 dervish enchantment, +10...50 dmg, Removal effect: Instant recharge

Twin Moon Sweep (PvE)
5 en, 1 act, 3 rchg, Only removes dervish enchantments

What kind of dps can we expect from these sorts of (overpowered) buffs? Well, it would take 1 second to cast a PBAoE enchantment (due to the aftercast) and 1 more second to remove it with Pious Assault. We'll assume a lvl 30 target with asuran scan and AoHM up.

Primary Target: (80 + (37+50)*1.75)/2 = 116.125
Secondary Targets: (80+37+50)/2 = 83.5

Now do you see what I'm talking about when I say that huge buffs would be required for enchantment juggling to compete with scythes (as they are right now)? Even with all this overpowering, it's still significantly less than a scythe sin can put out (though to be fair, this particular setup would allow for weakness and blind spam too; assuming the monsters don't run away first).

Of course, this all applies only if we decide not to nerf assassins and warriors with the scythe. If that happens, the necessary buffs aren't nearly as large. It does, however, need to do at least enough damage that people will look at it and go "yeah, that does enough damage to be meaningful".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I like it, however it's not something Anet seems to take into consideration with dervishes. Maybe they assume that Dervishes are so good at protecting themselves with Earth prayers, that the fact that they can remove monk enchantments isn't a risk?

I sure hope not!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

AoE damage that causes scatter runs the risk of scatter, and if you don't snare you're making the entire build less effective. Same with Elementalists. It's generally stupid to slap some skills like Firestorm on without a snare in late game/HM and expect to do good damage, so you either snare, or don't use them.

Yes, but, the need for a snare is an additional drawback. In other words, if a scythe does X damage and enchantment juggling does X damage, but enchantment juggling causes scatter and scythes do not, then there's not much point in using enchantment juggling, now is there?

Of course, in reality there are other factors (scythes are capped at three enemies, enchantment juggling makes you less vulnerable to anti-melee since less of the damage comes from direct melee, but scythes are not vulnerable to caster hate, etc). I'm just saying all of this has to be considered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

The problem of scatter generally doesn't exist with PBAoE enchantments because they don't do enough ticks of damage in a short enough period of time to cause scatter, and with an enchantment juggling build, Pious Assault is usually your only, or one of your only attack skills, filling the rest of the slots with PBAoE enchants and protection.

And if you're using them as much as I think we're talking about here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Well, All those changes are Ideal. the bringing back of Enchantment Juggling, and change to AoHM and perhaps a better IAS alone would certainly do wonders, while only changing and handful of skills. If decided to nerf WE and Critical Agility (or something of the nature), it would be even more useful. Changes to Mysticism, though it would be awesome, probably require too much work and thought.

You'd also have to hit zealous vow with the nerfbat, or they'd just turn around and use that. And I don't think a nerf to critical agility alone would be enough (though an AoHM change like we all would like would help immensely). And changes to mysticism (or some improvement in energy management that only dervishes can effectively use) would be a requirement in order to prevent the abuse of enchantment juggling by other professions.

I think the main thing keeping mysticism sucking so much is that right now it is triggered by any enchantment. That means that unless you build your team specifically to trigger it a lot, it won't give much energy. However, this also means that, were mysticism buffed, such a team would be able to give a dervish ridiculous amounts of energy (which may or may not be worth the cost of building the party around it, but you never know...). Two potential ways of solving this problem include buffing it but putting a cap on the amount of times it can be triggered in a given interval (like SR), or making it only trigger on dervish enchantments. I find I prefer the latter, because it is more conducive to enchantment juggling.

The question is how much energy? The answer, obviously, depends on how expensive enchantments and their removals are. Ideally, mysticism should give you enough energy to fuel them, but only just, while leaving enough attribute points for the 3-way split that would be necessary for enchantment juggling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Attacker's Insight. Zealous Vow just promotes haphazard spamming. Attacker's Insight is, realistically, 2 free attack skills and a trigger of mysticism (and energy regen during that time), which is enough to keep dervishes going alongside of your occasional monk enchant/orders flying around. I ran into absolutely no problem running Attackers insight in a spamming build with WS and some other skills.

That haphazard spamming is what gets you the most dps. And AI is not able to handle it because of it's recharge time.

Quote:

Also, "losing dps" and "WS" in the same sentence is foreign to me. WS is an on demand, slightly AoE Deep Wound. Deep Wound of course, ideally doing a slightly artificial 100 damage

That's 100 damage that you can only apply once per enemy. So over, say, 6 seconds, the DW has only increased your dps by 17. And the longer the enemy lives, the less the DW adds dps-wise. The bleeding also has to be considered, of course, but that's just 6 dps.

The extra damage you get from the deep wound of WS gets eclipsed by the dps of zealous vow builds within a few seconds. Think of it this way: WS is a spike, followed by a period of non-spiking. Zealous Vow is like a never-ending spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:P/D_Scythe_Spammer

I doubt that has the dps of a zealous vow dervish. Energy-wise, the dervish is just as well off as you are with leadership. He also has a third quick-activation attack skill, a slightly better IAS (a 2/3 maintainable 33% IAS is slightly better than a maintainable 25% one), and higher scythe mastery. The only offensive boon the paragon gets is a higher crit rate every few attacks. It may be able to out-dps it sometimes (if hitting enough enemies), but not consistently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

But on the note, I don't expect Anet to do anything anymore, I just suggest and hope for the best lol

I hear you. At least we're getting some useful dialogue going, though.